School Shootings: The 'Elephant in the Room'
The "elephant in the room" for (many) of these mass school shootings is
"How was the kid treated in school? Was he bullied, tormented, extremely socially rejected endlessly? Who was participating, to what level, and who was complicit? Everyone? Did anyone do anything about it on any significant, relevant scale? If the treatment is so bad, why didn't the parents pull him out for Homeschooling rather than torture? etc. etc.
Again, people do not like to consider such matters, and instead scapegoat the weapon of choice as the root cause of the issue--when, clearly, it is not. Logically, the same event could occur with bombs, suicide bombing, etc. etc. Furthermore, the reason why people do not like to consider it is that it destroys the "Disney Channel"/idealized-version of themselves, other people, and the world generally. As culpability is (often) partially reflected in the mirror.
What I would like to discuss is essentially what the Netflix series
"13 Reasons Why" began to explore (which, apparently, many people were unable to handle). That is, the contributions your 'average' person makes to the daily suffering of others in their 'reach' through forms of extreme social rejection, bullying, dehumanization, etc., with the exceptions being very rare. Furthermore, how a person in such a perpetually painful/tormented state becomes necessarily 'unwell', often 'cries out for help' which goes ignored or the subject of further ridicule, deeper resentfulness builds as they become more withdrawn and is highly susceptible to lashing out in very dangerous, unhealthy, and counterproductive ways toward either themselves (i.e. self-harm, suicide) and/or to others in their personal mission of what is often imagined to be 'vigilante justice' on their behalf (i.e. hurting others who have often in some hurt them). (Side note: Consider the joke in
Billy Madison, when Adam Sandler calls a guy from High School he used to bully, who then crosses his name off a 'hit list' once he hangs up the phone OR, in the movie
"Full Metal Jacket").
I would add, the common euphuism/scapegoat is often 'mental health issues'--while, of course, anyone who is extremely socially rejected & ostracized (i.e. a 'social leper') will necessarily have substantial 'mental health issues'. Hence, why solitary confinement is internationally considered torture. If given the option, human beings would prefer to be around serial rapists, torturers, & murders at least part of the time rather than alone. It is a simple fact of our Biology, and much has been learnt about through Neuroscience & other disciplines, although, of course, much more research is necessary to gain further insights.
As just noted, quite a bit is now known about this phenomena as a matter Neuroscience/Biology, so the level of 'debate' occurring around it (or, rather, not happening) now is truly pathetic (dangerously so)--as, unfortunately, is often the case.
The reality is (which people are aware of, though want to 'brush under the rug'); Tragedies such as Columbine, Parkland, etc. would be logically impossible if even 20% (or less) of people were of high-level empathy--as the kids' lives would have been functionally completely different, which leads to superior mental health & stability, less resentment, etc. etc. [Note: Now, of course, there actually are some people with strictly innate mental health issues, though that is not what we are discussing here, in this context]
What would be interesting, though still highly tragic, would be if such a kid organized an effort very similar to what is portrayed in the movie
"Seven Pounds" by Will Smith's character, rather than leaving the world as a mass murderer. That is, instead of focusing on all of the sh'tty people in the overwhelming majority who made their life 'hellish', seek out the rare 'good people' who may be in need, and offer what is possible through donations, including bone marrow, and organ donations prior to and upon self-inflicted death. In this way, they could get their story out, explain their reasoning, life experiences, etc. in a final letter to humanity which could potentially touch the 'hearts' of the 'average' person, who often/overwhelmingly contribute to the tragedy. This would give them that last bit of 'power'/'redemption' they are looking for--though, of course, the way it is happening now through mass murder is just absolutely nightmarish for everyone involved and is not going to help get through to people whatsoever; thus, perpetuating the cycle of torture & death, rather than throwing a 'wrench in the plans', as is often intended.
Link to
"Seven Pounds" trailer here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwrtEI-fcmM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Massacre at Columbine High
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4K8YE1ZatU
1 hour long--well worth the time. Do note, particularly, the time between 31:00-34:00 minutes
------------------------------------
I found a few videos of people on YouTube discussing this topic (from various perspectives). Links below:
(A)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km1pF1WHvwc
(B )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8fH0Qt1AbQ
(C)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6Xxn797OhY
(D)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AHH9F8xA
Thoughts?
Debra AI Prediction
Arguments
I have known pain and know the courage in overcoming it.
There are some people who are better than others but that also doesn't mean I want any less to see some of my old bullies skinned alive and screaming before me, I'd love every second but won't do as it's illegal.
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If they have become adults. Their branes would be developed and experiences would change them. Their beliefs, personalty, thoughts, how they act, what they think is right or wrong and all that would have changed. To punish them now would be to punish some one different then the people who bullied you. That is if they have had time to grow up in to adults.
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Try again with your defence in a court of law, we'll see how that goes.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Each case is really situational dependent, I have a suspicion the young man who perpetrated the Parkland, FL school shooting was picked on and rejected by most. Obviously he has some kind of mental issue if he was killing animals with no remorse before hand. I don't know all the facts, but it sound like the perfect storm; he was mentally disturbed, lost those closest to him, I suspect bullied and rejected this type of environment breeds a person who want's to prove something to society. It appears to me, the signs he was doing, that the neighbor lady picked upon was perhaps his way of crying for help.
None of those circumstances justify what he did, but they should have been precursors to authorities to take action, and get this person some help. Verses throwing the hands up in the air and say, "I can't do anything" if that in deed is the case. Those are the laws we need to change, because banning a weapon will not stop the next person from acting out his/her revenge.
Just my thoughts on the issue, and again, I'm not disagreeing with your points, just expanding upon them.
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You're not allowed to admit it, but actually they do justify what he did. People need to stop preying on the mentally weak or the mentally weak will indeed overcompensate and take it out on even weaker people.
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Oh, I whole heartily agree, mentally weak on not, there in never justification to be abusive to someone (physical or mental). Especially, with those who are unstable.
They may "justify" it, but he will either be put to death or put behind bars for the rest of his life. Regardless of the justification, the only time a person could get away with killing that many people would be in a war zone. Then you still may not.
@someone234
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The bullies are as much to blame for the outcome of their bullying as he is for the outcome of pulling that trigger.
Dumbasses will pick on the weak because they are too scared to conquer the strong.
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@Nope
Actually, I would point out, contact information is now easily accessible public information. If they ever truly reformed and had a desire to make amends for their misdeeds of the past (in so far as that is possible) it would be quite easy to get a hold of the person they were trying to find. This highly suggests that if such people fail to do so, then any regret, shame, guilt, etc. they may feel is minimal and does not pass a threshold point necessary to actually get involved.
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That being said...what happened to the days when kids went to school and were literally beaten, bruised, discriminated against...and still made the grades, went to school every day and graduated? Is anyone here REALLY going to try to say that School atmosphere today is worse than it was 30 years ago? I'm confident that it's not...it's not even close to being as bad. That said, kids used to get their A$$ beat on a daily basis and I mean BEAT DOWN. Black kids were beaten just for being black, kids were shook down for their lunch money and not only assaulted in the process...but then went without eating lunch...and we didn't have School shootings back then...and guns were MORE available back then than they are today! Kids could bring guns to School and DID bring their guns to school and still we never had issues with School Shootings.
I can't find any logic what-so-ever in trying to push a narrative that includes *Guns* as being the issue or *Bullying*. We've always had guns (More so in the past) and we've always had bullies (More and worse in the past) and when there were more of these things on a more severe scale...there were somehow no mass School shootings.
I conclude that the real issue here is Resilience. We don't train our Children to have it anymore...period. I'd be willing to put my credibility on the line for permanent dismissal on the idea that the overwhelming majority of Children today are raised with little to no resilience and instead are sheltered, coddled and restrained from experiencing the harshness of the real world. By the time Children realize that the real world is harsh and unforgiving...they're ill equipped to deal with it but mentally mature enough to make a serious decision on what to do about it. Essentially, they're smart enough to develop a really really bad plan on how to handle their problems because they don't have the skills or experience necessary to get the F$#@ over it.
This essentially stems back to the Parents who are ultimately responsible for the Child. In today's Society though...you'd be hard pressed to find a set of parents that could take responsibility for their own Child...instead the popular thing to do is blame it all on uncontrollable circumstances or blame it on anyone but yourself. Blame teachers, blame cops, blame guns, blame the media, blame video games, blame movies, blame music, blame anything and everything that allows you to shuck off the liability of being a parent.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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I'm certainly not any psychology teacher, however, I don't know if I would agree with her assessment. I knew several kids who bullied but had what appeared to be good parents. I tend to believe bullying is stemmed from a self-esteem issue, bullies have something that they are insecure with about themselves so the way they compensate is by attacking others before they themselves can be attacked. Kind of a type of defense mechanism.
I know a guy who has a complex over his weight, so he goes around pointing out everyone else's flaws and make an annoying joke of it. At first, people think it's cute, and go along with him, but he is relentless in his attacks on others (verbally) and he end's up alienating everyone. I've known kids who were bullies because they did not receive the love and attention a child needs at home. I've known several people at work who have used bullying tactics to divert attention from themselves. I once worked for a guy who was picked on as a kid and I believe had phycological issues from it. I his adult life, he got his higher education and finally got put into a position of authority and anyone who he perceived as being popular or may perceivably threaten his job position. He was mean, I would say evil. He tormented people to tears, threatened their future lively hood. I was 12 months of pure hell. Thankfully he committed fraud with some funds and was fired. But you talk about a bully, he went from being picked on to way overcompensating and was horrific towards his people.
Anyway, I'm not saying your teacher is wrong, not my field of study. However, my experience in life is it spawns more from low self-esteem.
Thanks for sharing your insight!
@MajoMILSdlGMGV
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- I'm not quite sure what you're referring to if it's free will from a spiritual standpoint most certainly do have free will.
- If you're referring to a person's reaction from being bullied, unless a person has a mental issue that does not allow them to discern right from wrong, I believe we have the ability to control our response.
- The difference often between a sain person and someone who is not is the ability to restrain oneself from acting upon our impulses.
- I'm sure we have all been in situations where we envisioned, chocking or killing someone who did not like a given point in time, but our rational mind kept us from acting upon those impulses.
- Then there are people who are pushed to the brink and end up acting out a flee or fight situation.
- But a sain person will keep their emotions under control and not act upon them.
Bullying is definitely not right, but it is equally not right to seek out revenge, yes in some cases if the bullying had not taken place there may not have been an incident.But we always have a choice, some make a good choice other not so good.
@someone234
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I believe the term Helicopter Parent comes to mind; it could be a part of the issue our society is facing. This is a well known hurtle that the millennial generation have been be facing and resiliency definitely plays into their overall success. Resiliency enables one ability to recover, learn from, and developmentally mature when confronted with chronic or crisis adversity.
“I believe adaptive capacity or resilience is the single most important quality in a leader, or in anyone else for that matter, who hopes to lead a healthy, meaningful life.” - Warren Bennis
At the core of resiliency is four fundamental pillars, Mental health, Physical heath, Social wellness, and Spiritual well-being
Stress can be both positive and negative, it can enhance and deteriorate performance. Yerkes-Dodson Law states each individual has an optimal performance range associated with their level of arousal. Some researchers equate arousal with anxiety or stress. None of these terms are a negative attribute, rather too little and a person is bored and too much and a person is overwhelmed. Some people have a small range of optimal performance but it can be expanded using coping mechanisms.
Research consistently demonstrates the level of a person’s health and wellbeing affects the level of their performance; the healthier and more fit a person is…the better he or she will perform.
Positive events can result in poor performance
Negative Events
Stress is encountered everyday in a variety of ways
Stress can enhance or degrade our performance (eustress and distress)
As you can see in the model above, the way a persons strengthens their resiliency is to accept new challenges in life. Without adequate stimuli a persons resiliency will diminish our tipping points on the Stress Performance Continuum will narrow. The ideal is have out tipping point at the furthest outer points as possible. This can only be done by have healthy resilience skills by building up sturdy resilient pillars consisting of Mental, Physical, Social and Spiritual health.
[1] Warren Bennis, American Psychologist, January 2007, p. 5
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It's also a sad fact of U.S. social policy, that lethal weapons are regarded without due respect.
If the Elephant's got the gun, it's eventually going to shoot someone.
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More people are killed in the U.S. each year with hands and feet than all rifles combined...not just AR-15s. Weapons are not the issue...they're just more convenient to target than the real issue: Evil people.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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"Feelings are not supposed to be logical. Dangerous is the man who has rationalized his emotions." - David Borenstein
We can also say that an average of 20.7 people die per year as the result of a Mass Shooting. Accounting for .19% of all homicides involving a firearm. With an average US population of 333,000,000 your odds of being killed in any give year is 1 in 6.21621e-8
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to make the argument that there’s no problem out there. There obviously is, from 1982 to 2017 there has been 34 total mass shooting incidents[2]. Accounting for 739 total deaths[3]. However, banning weapons will not solve the issue. The data is there to prove it, below is the 2016 FBI Violent Crime Stats for Murder. I made a convenient chart to show the total number and percentages.[4]
In fact, according to the Mises Institute[5] while gun ownership has gone up exponentially, the murder rates have actually seedily declined over the last two decades.
Look at the total number deaths caused by drugs, The total number of homicides in 2016 equated to the deaths as a result of drug overdose, a person is 4x's more likely to die of drug overdose as a posed to being murdered. You are nearly 6X more likely to die of drugs than by a firearm and a 171.5X more likely than being killed with an assault weapon rifle.
Just to recap: Your odds of being killed in a Mass Shooting is 1 in 6.21621e-8, rifles of all types count for 2% of all homicides, and your 171.5 time more like to die of a drug overdose than being killed with an assault weapon style rifle. I'm sorry, I'm not seeing the elephant in this room.
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.b1a5b7c6f965[2] http://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/mass-shootings-chart-1.png
[3] https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12
[4] http://time.com/4965022/deadliest-mass-shooting-us-history
[5] https://mises.org/blog/pew-homicide-rates-cut-half-over-past-20-years-while-new-gun-ownership-soared
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Are we not discussing school shootings here?
There is only one "real issue".
That is to say. Kids in schools with easy access to lethal weaponry.
Murder statistics are irrelevant.
Evil is simply a word we use to represent a state of mind.
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Murder statistics are irrelevant.
Are you saying school shooting should drive our policy, or kids having access to firearms?
I do believe we need to look at statistics and do some cross-data analysis to try and identify some trends. It can't be a firearm issue only, as an inanimate object just does not kill on its own. I've had access to firearms since the age of nine, many children both male and female enjoy hunting with their parents, as well as hunting on their own. The masses should not have their rights infringed upon due to a few bad actors.
While it is horrific to think about the killing of innocent children being killed, there are may other counter measures that can be taken to secure their safety. I myself believe the 24/7 news coverage have a large portion of the blame. I believe mentally unstable individuals see this stuff on TV and then come to the conclusion that I get others to pay attention to or listen to me know.
We don't see these acts taking place at police stations or in court houses were there is security and other countermeasures in place. I believe gun free zones are a magnet for such people. But maybe this was not your question.
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So: A person most likely to gun down their classmates and teachers is someone with social and mental health issues.
I don't think anyone would argue with this.
The point I was trying to make was.
It is also an unarguable fact that: Easy access to lethal weaponry in a society with a lax attitude towards gun control will inevitably lead to an extreme conclusion.
Sure we should always try and address social and mental health problems in children.
But we will never be able to make these problems completely go away.
Burying ones head in the sand every time gun control is mentioned, certainly isn't going to make the problem go away either.
Nor is arming all the persons we presume to be the good guys.
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It's less about fighting the government (they penetrate your mind from birth, your guns aren't going to win), it's more about being a threat to potential criminals.
Lazy cops at least need to admit they are lazy and hand out guns, otherwise they should remove guns form the bad guys as has been extremely efficiently done in most of western Europe, Australia, China etc.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.planetebook.com/free-ebooks/1984.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj0v82zzavaAhWNwFMKHRcsBQ8QFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1CGblG2F9BL-DC615YR-MW
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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There are ways to stop the mind control.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4715329/florida-shooting-false-flag-op-robert-kentucky
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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So, your recommendation is to do what? Take guns away? When you do that people just start using different means of killing one another. Look at London they took guns away and they are dealing with stabbings.
The British capital also suffered 22 fatal stabbings and shootings in March, higher than the 21 in New York. There have been 10 fatal stabbings in London in the last 19 days, following on from the 80 fatal stabbings recorded in the city last year.
The most dangerous cities in America, ranked
London's murder rate has grown by nearly 40 percent in three years
We have to learn to distinguish the homicidal maniac before he/she acts or figure out a means to stop them. Because they are still going to keep coming.@Fredsnephew
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Yes. Sadly gang violence has become a popular pastime in London these days.
Another Elephant in a different Room I would suggest and not directly related to the subject in question.
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Where exactly are you getting this conclusion from?
Allow me to square you away for a moment:
1. The Entire U.S. Military (Approximately 2,008,895) makes up less than 1% of the total population of the United States (325,000,000).
2. The United States civilian population is what allows the U.S. Military to operate, Military service members don't grow their own food or provide themselves with much of anything, it's all provided by the civilian populace.
So you contend that the U.S. Military, while leaning completely and totally upon the logistics provided by the civilian population...could put up enough combat strength in order to topple the absolutely most heavily armed civilian population with the largest and most heavily armed State Militias in the entire World?
I respectfully disagree.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
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Fear is a weapon more powerful than the gun you hold. If you're dumb enough to be that brave to shoot, you'll be the first they make an example of. They'll use the media to their entire advantage.
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I understand that your conclusion is that the real issue here is school age children with easy access to deadly weapons. I happen to disagree. Firearm laws have actually increased incredibly over the past 70 years and firearms have subsequently become more and more difficult to obtain. Yet school shootings have increased in the past 70 years from an average of 15 per decade from 1930 to 1960...to a major crisis. So what happened? By your logic, school shootings should have been rampant 70 years ago when kids could take their guns to school, gun laws were virtually non-existent compared to today's standards and there was no background check to purchase a gun.
Gun Control Debate
Pro: Children having easy access to firearms equals mass shootings.
Con: Children had more access to firearms 70 years ago than they do today and we had SIGNIFICANTLY fewer school shootings then than now.
My conclusions: The scales are tipped heavily in one direction...and guns are one of the issues on the scales. Unfortunately when you remove guns from the scales (Remove the variable)...the scales remain tipped. Guns are not the issue. If guns WERE the issue...we'd be seeing a decline in school shootings because of the increase in gun control legislation.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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Which part of this is the rebuttal to my argument?
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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The urge to shoot is the key to winning. The urge is where they will hit the hardest on top of their superior strategy and weaponry.
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I wonder where they get their equipment, weapons and ammunition from.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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I truly feel like you're making factual statements concerning what differences Military personnel would or wouldn't perceive without any qualifications to make those statements. There's no appeal to authority here but to say that a Soldier will or won't do something is to make a claim from authority as you're talking about a Human being in a specific profession.
Some of us have been on that line, some of us understand the common mentality and general perspective that Service Members hold when it comes to the idea of potentially firing on U.S. citizens...and yes the conversation does get brought up and it's generally discussed in great detail so that everyone knows where everyone stands on the subject. Any service member with half a brain knows that it's not a matter of being told what to do and then doing it...whatever movie reference you might have that makes you think otherwise is fictional. Unless of course your argument is somehow rooted in facts, evidence or experience of course.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Please don't feel I am threatening you, the threat isn't me.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Again you ignore my argument and shift conclusions. I'm still getting some amusement from your "I don't have to argue logically, I can just throw up arguments until one sticks that you can't refute conclusively".
That said, since the vast majority of the U.S. Military forces are stationed within the United States...if they decided to attack U.S. citizens...exactly where would the front line be?
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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